Curse

shadowfell · Sep 12, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Since having a PVE character in PVP is intended and is not a design flaw, there is nothing to exploit....

Who dug this out of the thread graveyard anyhow. Give it a rest.

Henchman · Sep 12, 2006, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Hmm, an interesting idea posted in this thread.
On one hand, PVE players have to grind alot to become equal with PVP players, but on the other hand, if they grind enough, they have an advantage over full PVP players.
Nonetheless, I dont think PVE players should be penalized for what they have accomplished. A better idea would be to give PVP players more armor options.
As for giving PVE players access to all PVP skills- It is hard work for a PVE player to unlock all the skills to be competetive in PVP. But temporarly giving skills to PVE players could lead to confusion as to which skills they really have and which ones they don't.
Great ideas posted in this thread. They still have some issues, but I would like to see them implemented.

And an on topic question: In PVE there exist perfect weapons which require only lvl 8 in the weapon attribute as opposed to lvl 9 in PVP (rumors say that there are even lvl 7 perfect weapons). They also give pve'ers an advantage in PVP, so should something be done with them as well?

luauelveneno · Sep 12, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

/notsigned

PVE players like me and many many others WORK HARD for their skills and armors and weapons. Dont touch the PVE players.
PVP players (also like me) who can make a char in a few minutes can delete it when we want and can use the same skills as any other PVE char.
However iam for the fact that PVP players should be able to change armor aswell and also more weapons available for them is okay imo.

this will be an neverending discussion between pve and pvp players. just let the game as it is. it is good as it is. some nerfs are maybe needed but the game mechanics like Anet wanted them to be should be untouched. PVE players should be allowed in PVP area and i think (not sure if its still possible) PVP players should be able to help out PVE in aspenwood or the jade thing in factions.

Anet didnt make it possible for PVE to play PVP with the char people work hard for for nothing. deal with it.

so /signed for more stuff for PVP players
/notsigned for changing the PVE players that wanna do PVP (in any way)

(PS: i know this might be said by many others but i still wanted to type it)

lyra_song · Sep 12, 2006, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

Since having a PVE character in PVP is intended and is not a design flaw, there is nothing to exploit....

Yes this is true.

However...

There are many things a PVE character has access to and can do that a PVP character doesnt have access to/cannot do that i think was not anticipated for by the designers such as the armor swapping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henchman

And an on topic question: In PVE there exist perfect weapons which require only lvl 8 in the weapon attribute as opposed to lvl 9 in PVP (rumors say that there are even lvl 7 perfect weapons). They also give pve'ers an advantage in PVP, so should something be done with them as well?

Well regardless of a weapon's requirements, you cannot get the full benefit of an weapon (damage wise) unless you have at least 12 in the required attribute line. so a req 7-8 isnt imbalanced vs a req 12 weapon.

IIRC offhands and shields get full benefit as long as they meet the requirement, but dont quote me on that im not too sure.

Red · Sep 12, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Lyra, may I suggest that you edit your original post to include the possibility for letting PvPs freely receive armor, runes, weapons, and mods from crafters in the Great Temple of Balthazar?

I say this, because this and similar ideas have been popping up very often in this thread, echoed again and again. Your method #2 of increasing weapons options isn't quite the same as what's being suggested here. Thus:

1) Nerf PvE: Lock PvE inventories in battle -- no switching. This means that, once in a battle, a PvE is limited to what a traditional PvP can do.

2) Buff PvP: Provide armor/rune/weapon/mod crafters. Make sure weapons include Armor +10 vs. X shields, and other current weapons only obtainable in PvE. Furthermore, give PvP characters a belt pouch and bags with runes of holding. This means that PvEs can keep doing what they do now; but so can a PvP load up on weapon and armor sets.

3) Lyra's Crazy Idea: Give PvE characters the attributes and options of a PvP character when in those zones.

Mordakai · Sep 12, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Thanks for clarifying my point, Lyra. Armor switching, req. 8 items, basically anything a PvE can do that a PvP can't is an exploit. Why?

Because, when Anet sells a Tourney Only package, those people are screwed because they will be at a disadvantage to PvEers in PvP. And the whole grand scheme of "Skill vs. Grind" will be lost. Face it, Guild Wars needs to continue to attract new players to survive, and if they don't, then it won't matter how unbalanced you are if no one's around to play against you.

People who claim that PvEers have a right to be unbalanced are missing the whole point: it is NOT right! It's not fair to those who buy a tourney only package, or get into Guild Wars late. Like it or not, it will eventually change, I can't see any way around it.

This thread should focus on how to change it to please the most amount of people (obviously, some will never be pleased).

Allowing armor switching for PvEers and PvPers will appeal to the most, because this way the PvEers don't lose anything, and the PvPers gain. It's a win/win. You could even have 2-4 armor slots you could switch out at a moment's notice (like weapon slots), saving the hastle and time of individually switching out armor in the heat of battle.

If armor switching is to be a legitimate tactic in PvP, it's best to do it right!

(thanks to Redly for the idea)

shadowfell · Sep 12, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Thanks for clarifying my point, Lyra. Armor switching, req. 8 items, basically anything a PvE can do that a PvP can't is an exploit. Why?

Because, when Anet sells a Tourney Only package, those people are screwed because they will be at a disadvantage to PvEers in PvP. And the whole grand scheme of "Skill vs. Grind" will be lost. Face it, Guild Wars needs to continue to attract new players to survive, and if they don't, then it won't matter how unbalanced you are if no one's around to play against you.

People who claim that PvEers have a right to be unbalanced are missing the whole point: it is NOT right! It's not fair to those who buy a tourney only package, or get into Guild Wars late. Like it or not, it will eventually change, I can't see any way around it.

This thread should focus on how to change it to please the most amount of people (obviously, some will never be pleased).

Allowing armor switching for PvEers and PvPers will appeal to the most, because this way the PvEers don't lose anything, and the PvPers gain. It's a win/win. You could even have 2-4 armor slots you could switch out at a moment's notice (like weapon slots), saving the hastle and time of individually switching out armor in the heat of battle.

If armor switching is to be a legitimate tactic in PvP, it's best to do it right!

(thanks to Redly for the idea)

Why are people still whining about this.. really?

So people get into GW late? Big deal. They also get the ability to BUY all the skills at once, unlock everything at once without having to buy a chapter as well. Try doing that with a pve character.

It's funny that the most of the people I see complainingg about this, are people I have seen in, for example, fort aspenwood, marching commando tank into the middle of a seige turtle, and a mass of anti warrior mesmers and then complaining about unbalance because they are 'on a pvp character'

Trust me.. it isnt the side of the game you came from and the armor that you wear that makes you suck.

If you want to start this whining convo over again about have and have nots.. petition an to get more armor choices, more weapon choices. Leave pve out of it. It's you chasing people away, if anyone, otherwise.

Mordakai · Sep 12, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

Why are people still whining about this.. really?

Really? Because we care about the game, and we want it to be fair to all who play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

So people get into GW late? Big deal. They also get the ability to BUY all the skills at once, unlock everything at once without having to buy a chapter as well. Try doing that with a pve character.

So, that makes them better than a PvEer? Remember, you can do the same thing for your PvP character. Anet is obviously trying to make the game more accessable to PvP only players. Doing something about armor switching and the disparity in weapons is the next step.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

It's funny that the most of the people I see complainingg about this, are people I have seen in, for example, fort aspenwood, marching commando tank into the middle of a seige turtle, and a mass of anti warrior mesmers and then complaining about unbalance because they are 'on a pvp character'

That's not me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

Trust me.. it isnt the side of the game you came from and the armor that you wear that makes you suck.

No doubt. But do you deny that PvE players have a slight advantage over PvP only players?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

If you want to start this whining convo over again about have and have nots.. petition an to get more armor choices, more weapon choices. Leave pve out of it. It's you chasing people away, if anyone, otherwise.

I thought that's what I was doing... more armor and weapon choices for PvP only characters. I agree, nerfing PvE players will just make people upset.

Upgrading PvPers is win/win. And for those who still scream "It's not fair! I farmed 90 hours for all my armor and weapons!"

Fair point. Make these new PvP armor and weapon choices only unlockable by Faction. And remember, if you don't have a PvE character with all the bells and whistles, you can now just make a PvP character who does.

Really, I think this will help improve PvP, not hurt it!

lyra_song · Sep 12, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

So people get into GW late? Big deal. They also get the ability to BUY all the skills at once, unlock everything at once without having to buy a chapter as well. Try doing that with a pve character.

We've repeated this already. This isnt an advantage because the PVE char has the same access AND more given enough time/money/grinding. Time spent does give you an advantage. Contrary to what Guild Wars declares itself to be. This is why it should be fixed.

The advantage is on the PVE side. The delusion is that PVE deserves, earned, or was designed to have said advantage.

Quote:

Trust me.. it isnt the side of the game you came from and the armor that you wear that makes you suck.

Oh i know i suck in PVP. It shouldnt matter and its beside the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

petition an to get more armor choices, more weapon choices.

The weapon choices was part of idea 2. The armor choices is a recent edit.

I really dont like the idea of a warrior having multiple armor sets in battle though. Meh...

Mordakai · Sep 12, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I really dont like the idea of a warrior having multiple armor sets in battle though. Meh...

Re-reading the quotes from Izzy that started this thread, it doesn't sound like Anet does either.

Or they would have offered armor slots (like weapon slots), a long time ago. But, that's not to say the idea is not possible. If enough people petition Anet to want it, they might put it in.

Bottom line, though, the hardcore "PvE > PvP only" crowd needs to accept the fact that their position is not going to be supported by Anet. The recent additions to the store show that. It's not a matter of not changing things, it's a matter of how to do it.

PvEers were never supposed to have an advantage in PvP. Read the quotes from Izzy at the beginning of the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isaiah Cartwright

Well, I think its a flaw in our system. I think the PvP character screen needs to be expanded and allow you to match what the PvE character can. And I think certain items, certain things that have existed in the game that are too good that only PvE character can get. You've seen that we've been trying to fix those. We've added different items to the PvP character screen. We've added certain bonuses to different places to try to make it more of a level field. You'll continue to see that level of stuff all throughout the game, and we will do our best to make PvP characters can be just as good as PvE characters. We'll probably always keep the distinction between two that you get to look cool as a PvE character, thats your thing. You get to have the sexy outfit, you get to have the awesome weapons. And a PvP character should be just as functional as a PvE character, but he should just look a little less cool.

The truth itself · Sep 12, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Why are people still whining about this.. really?

We're discussing it, the entire purpose of forums.

So people get into GW late? Big deal. They also get the ability to BUY all the skills at once, unlock everything at once without having to buy a chapter as well. Try doing that with a pve character.

Your arguement is false. Time shouldn't be a factor. PvEing requires time.

It's funny that the most of the people I see complainingg about this, are people I have seen in, for example, fort aspenwood, marching commando tank into the middle of a seige turtle, and a mass of anti warrior mesmers and then complaining about unbalance because they are 'on a pvp character'

Personal attacks gets you no where.

Trust me.. it isnt the side of the game you came from and the armor that you wear that makes you suck.

It does have some impact, just not as much. That doesn't make it less unfiar.

If you want to start this whining convo over again about have and have nots.. petition an to get more armor choices, more weapon choices. Leave pve out of it. It's you chasing people away, if anyone, otherwise.

It's easier just to lock the inventory. In the end, the battle isn't meant to be fought in the inventory.

bsumlin · Sep 12, 2006, 07:58 PM // 19:58

I'm in opposition to levelling the playing field across PvP/PvE characters. Being able to dominate the field with a character you've "raised" since level 1 is very rewarding, and is much more challenging than just clicking a few times to make an indominatible PvP character. That's boring, and any idiot can do it. It takes a real guild wars player to make a real character. If we want to use a particular elite skill in the PvP arena, then by god we go EARN it.

Zexion · Sep 12, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

/signed

And with the newly announced Guild Wars PvP Edition soon to come, I see this being very likely. If they are gonna make an edition where you have NO access to PvE whatsoever, they better gotta balance it out, so that PvP chars can have 4 weapon slots, and either multiple armors, or only 1 armor set on a PvE char in PvP.

Also, your crazy idea is not so crazy after all. I have suggested it before on these very same forums.
To make all unlocked skills available for PvE chars playing in the Battle Isles.

_Zexion

lyra_song · Sep 12, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsumlin

I'm in opposition to levelling the playing field across PvP/PvE characters. Being able to dominate the field with a character you've "raised" since level 1 is very rewarding, and is much more challenging than just clicking a few times to make an indominatible PvP character. That's boring, and any idiot can do it. It takes a real guild wars player to make a real character. If we want to use a particular elite skill in the PvP arena, then by god we go EARN it.

Click "<<" and read from the beginning.

Then go back here and click "edit"

Erase what you wrote.

Then type "Im sorry i didnt read the thread, everything i said has been said already."

j/k

while i accept your disagreement, your explanation as to why is flawed and have been proven false already.

Mordakai · Sep 12, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsumlin

I'm in opposition to levelling the playing field across PvP/PvE characters. Being able to dominate the field with a character you've "raised" since level 1 is very rewarding, and is much more challenging than just clicking a few times to make an indominatible PvP character. That's boring, and any idiot can do it. It takes a real guild wars player to make a real character. If we want to use a particular elite skill in the PvP arena, then by god we go EARN it.

I sure as hell hope your being sarcastic / joking. You feel rewarded in getting a character to level 20? Congratulations. That was the easy part.

As for Elite skills, any PvPer can just buy all the Elites from Prophecies, and soon from Factions, too, from the online store. And guess what? That Elite works just the same as the one you "earned" by killing some monster.

The idea of having to "earn" the basic skills, items, and armor you need to play Guild Wars is dead. Even in PvE, Elites are sooner in the game, and (it seems to me), easier to cap. Max armor is available quickly, there are more max collector's items and greens then you can shake a stick at.

Anyway, this thread is not about skills, but about armor switching a discrepancy in weapons. I'm not even necessarily for just giving this stuff to PvPers, either. If people want PvPers to "earn" req. 8 weapons and mulitple armor with Faction, that's fine.

I just believe that at the very least, PvPers should have access to the same equipment that PvEers do. Anything less is unfair.

Omega X · Sep 12, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

/Signed for #1

Lock the inventories. It shouldn't be allowed to begin with. IT seems like cheating to me.

Mezmo · Sep 12, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Well, first thing i'd like to say is that the mods must be happy that this thread was dug out of the graveyard instead of having been made anew

.

Now then, as far as what this whole thread is about....

I think that locking the inventories is the wrong way to go. Many PvE characters took 100's of hours to make pvp ready and more, and then to only have anet make it seem that all that hard work was for naught with the locking of inventories in pvp. Things like more weapon choices for pvp toons is something i agree there should be (as everyone before me seems to have statited

). As far as teh armour issue goes i think a better solution would be to allow pvp only chars access to multiple sets of armour, but not all free. The first set would be free of course, but latter sets u'd have to buy with Balth faction. Same would go for runes for these pieces. Since atm there is a 10k faction cap I belive that it should cost realitivly little to buy the armours. There's also a prof. changer so there would be no need to re-role a char and lose the armour unless you wanted to re-role primary prof. The same could apply for buying pvp only weapons. Perhaps if the faction cap is raised there could even be pvp 15k armours

. These could have completly different skins then what you can get in pve, but would only be assecible to pvp only chars. I think if this were implemented though they would need to cost more then 10k+ faction, since anyhting less would be to easy to get. But now i'm starting to get off topic...

Anyways I think that denying the PvE chars thier advantages is the wrong way to go. This would most likely cause many of them to not wanna play pvp anymore. Making it so that pvp chars are better would seem a better route to me.

dgb · Sep 13, 2006, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

The game is balanced as it can be without adding restrictions to old players in an attempt to cury favor with the new. Players who have earned an advantage through playtime should not be penalized because new players can't have that advantage without working as hard as I did. If they want those advantages, let them buy the whole game, play the whole game, and get them the way I did. I'll even help--I know I will because I have--if they ask.

This calls for the wisdom of Vindexus. Different debate, but the line still stands.

Brustow · Sep 13, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

PVE and PVP are seperate games. Due to the single fact that GW let's you create 2 types of characters.

IMO, PVE characters should be designed to go through the campaigns of GW. PVP characters should be designed to compete in the areas of competition and tournaments of GW. If you're going to allow PVE chars to be able to play PVP, then those chars shouldn't have any advantage over PVP ones.

If both options are offered why aren't they completly equal? What if players don't want to go through PVE and go straight to the competition? Are they lazy? I've actually seen PVE player's call PVP only player's that. How can you be lazy when you're playing a game? Playing a game is anything but productive. It's entertainment. Obviously Anet thought about those players, who don't want to go through PVE, and that's why it created the PVP only characters and is now offereing UAS.

So it's time to take the next step and offer no advantages between PVE and PVP characters. Anet lives up to it's reputation with GW and keeps things balanced. Well it's time to go beyond skills and items now. I don't understand the grief among those PVE players who use their characters in PVP. You still get to keep your same characters. Wouldn't you want the option to create a new PVP character, say a new class, and not have to feel like you must create a PVE char just so you can get the best character for competition?

The argument, "Well I worked for my PVE character.", is flawed. PVP players have to grind for faction. I spent many, many, hours in RA and TA just so I can get enough faction to unlock skills and weapon upgrades for PVP only characters. How is that different from playing PVE? You play your quests to unlock skills, you spend time farming for your elite weapons and items, and even more on buying 15k armor that is just for looks. You don't deserve special treatement just because you have more time to kill, to fight predictable NPC's over and over again. I emphazise this, Having a PVE character does not make you a better player than those who only play PVP.

Mezmo · Sep 13, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brustow

Having a PVE character does not make you a better player than those who only play PVP.

I fail to see were this statement has anything to do with what this thread is about. This thread is about equalizing pvp and pve chars, not about individual players skills. It's been posted by people on both sides of the argument that better equipment doesn't mean that your a good player. The equipment just gives pve players a slight edge of pvp only characters in number of weapon, armour switching, blah blah (read thread for all these differences). Please dont' start the whole "Pve players are better then Pvp" ~ "NO, PvP are better then PvE" argument, as it's been kept out of this thread pretty well so far.

You were talking about the grind pve players have compared to pvp. Well, your argument is flawed as well. If your talking about unlocking all skills through pvp then yes, it's gonna take a while. If your talking about unlocking enough stuff to be pvp ready though, it's gonna take a pve player MUCH longer to get thier skills/gear then a pvp player. Perfect weapons cost money, which in turn means hours of farming so you can buy them. Same goes for armour and runes. It's actually easier now adays to make a PvE player pvp ready faster then it used to be. With the intruduction of greens and the hole all gold armours are sup runes, prices have dropped drastically. But it wasn't always like that, and many of the people that have posted in this thread i'm shure are amongst those that had to buy thier runes at higher prices, and the old greens were often crap causing them to buy perfect weapons and then buying mods for them. There is alot more grind involved for the pve player then the pvp only chars to get pvp ready. Skills also take along time in pve to unlock. You have to farm money to buy the skills, and some of the good elites are hard to get. Minly those that are aquired on the fire islands. Takes along time to get to them, even with runs. Many of the skills are out of the way and take alot of additional time to unlock.

And agian, pleases don't turn this into a flame war about are pvp or pve players better, that's not what this thread is about so lets not go there.